This assignment is by far one of the coolest things that I have ever been apart of hear at GBS. This assignment really challenged me to come out of my comfort zone, and enter into a world that most pastor's will never know or be able to minister to.
The assignment description was to "Interview a person belonging to a cult. This must be “in person.” Use the questions found in the attachment as a guide for your interview. You do not need to ask all the questions." By GBS and Wesleyan definitions the church of Scientology is classified as a New Age Cult.
I decided that the worst thing that I could do was to approach someone and say "hey I got to do an interview with a cult member; do you care to answer a few of my questions. Therefore, I decided to tell them that I was taking a class on Religions in America and that I would like to speak to someone about their churches beliefs and practices; which was completely honest, and transparent. The following is the interview that transpired.
The assignment description was to "Interview a person belonging to a cult. This must be “in person.” Use the questions found in the attachment as a guide for your interview. You do not need to ask all the questions." By GBS and Wesleyan definitions the church of Scientology is classified as a New Age Cult.
I decided that the worst thing that I could do was to approach someone and say "hey I got to do an interview with a cult member; do you care to answer a few of my questions. Therefore, I decided to tell them that I was taking a class on Religions in America and that I would like to speak to someone about their churches beliefs and practices; which was completely honest, and transparent. The following is the interview that transpired.
W5: Interview Assignment
The person that I visited was a member of the church of Scientology in Florence Ky. For anonymity purposes I have decided to change his name to Bobby. Below you will see a picture of his church. Bobby is 32 years old and a staff member at the Church of Scientology.
The person that I visited was a member of the church of Scientology in Florence Ky. For anonymity purposes I have decided to change his name to Bobby. Below you will see a picture of his church. Bobby is 32 years old and a staff member at the Church of Scientology.
I showed up on a Tuesday morning between 10:30 and 11:00. I was surprised to see all the activity that was going on around the church at such a time during the weekday. There were people working on the building outside and inside. In addition, there were people fellowshipping, and services being conducted.
I approached the reception desk and informed them that I was a student taking a class on Religions in America and that I would like to speak to someone about their churches beliefs and practices; if someone was available and had the time to meet with me. The friendly receptionist made a phone call and within minutes I was greeted by Bobby; who was very happy to meet me.
Bobby was wearing a black turtleneck sweater, along with a black sports coat and pants. With his facial hair and glasses he kind of reminded me of a 90’s retro psychiatrist asking me “and how does that make you feel?” All he lacked was the tobacco pipe, and notepad. It was at this point that I introduced myself and informed him of the reason for my visit. He invited me to join him in his office, and informed me that he would be happy to answer any of my questions.
When we arrived at his office I explained in greater detail my own personal beliefs, the beliefs of my college, and the nature of the questions that I was wishing to address. I informed him that although, I realized from research that that Scientology acknowledges the existence of more than one god; that I do not, and that I adhere to Judeo-Christian beliefs, and therefore the questions that I have will be along those lines. Bobby informed me that he completely understood.
It was at this point that Bobby went into what I would call a preamble or rehearsed statement of beliefs, that he would typically give someone who was new. I also quickly figured out that my new friend was very chatty. He covered a multitude of topics in a very short time. It felt like I was being asked to eat an elephant in one bite. I believe that my pen and paper made him nervous. Therefore, I decided to interrupt him at an opportune time. It was here that I asked to “fire off some simple questions at him.” I believe that this helped to make him feel not so much under pressure. The following few questions are the ones that I gave him to start.
Interview Questions
What is your view of the Bible? How trustworthy is it?
Our beliefs are our own (the individual), however; we believe the Bible is a holy work.
Who is Jesus?
He was the savior of mankind.
Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross?
Yes!
Do you believe that he rose bodily from the grave and is alive today?
Absolutely!
At this point, I was relieved to hear his answer about Jesus. (I would later learn that these were Bobby’s personal beliefs and do not reflect all members of the organization. For example, if I would of came on a different day, and got a different person; let’s say a Muslim; I would have received different answers to the above questions.) Bobby returned to his charts and prepared topics. While in his office we talked about such things as his Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart, we also spoke about their purification process and auditing. During which time I was repeatedly referred to check out their multiple media stations located all throughout the lobby. Shortly thereafter Bobby informed me that there was something that he wanted me to see at one of these media stations. We went to the lobby where we watched a short video.
This would be a good time to address something that impressed me very much about their organization. I feel at times the church fails to meet people where they are at. Sadly the place that people are at today is in a sea of decentralization through television and media. I believe that the church of Scientology understands that this is how to reach people. Therefore in their lobby they have a minimum of eight 52 inch plasma flat screen televisions that all address various questions and vague answers to any and all of your Scientology questions. I can tell from my former media experience that the church has spent countless dollars and man hours on the production of these videos. Although, what they are teaching does not line up with many truths of the Bible, they are however, meeting the people where they are at. We live in a day and time where the television has become the classroom; so where else would you teach them.
Jumping back to the subject at hand, Bobby had just showed me a video on engrams. The church defines engrams by saying:
"The reactive mind does not store memories as we know them. It stores particular types of mental image pictures called engrams. These engrams are a complete recording, down to the last accurate detail, of every perception present in a moment of partial or full “unconsciousness.”
It was after the above video, a few questions, and dissecting a photo; that the churches beliefs and practices began to become clearer. The following photo is the one that was hanging up at the media station:
I approached the reception desk and informed them that I was a student taking a class on Religions in America and that I would like to speak to someone about their churches beliefs and practices; if someone was available and had the time to meet with me. The friendly receptionist made a phone call and within minutes I was greeted by Bobby; who was very happy to meet me.
Bobby was wearing a black turtleneck sweater, along with a black sports coat and pants. With his facial hair and glasses he kind of reminded me of a 90’s retro psychiatrist asking me “and how does that make you feel?” All he lacked was the tobacco pipe, and notepad. It was at this point that I introduced myself and informed him of the reason for my visit. He invited me to join him in his office, and informed me that he would be happy to answer any of my questions.
When we arrived at his office I explained in greater detail my own personal beliefs, the beliefs of my college, and the nature of the questions that I was wishing to address. I informed him that although, I realized from research that that Scientology acknowledges the existence of more than one god; that I do not, and that I adhere to Judeo-Christian beliefs, and therefore the questions that I have will be along those lines. Bobby informed me that he completely understood.
It was at this point that Bobby went into what I would call a preamble or rehearsed statement of beliefs, that he would typically give someone who was new. I also quickly figured out that my new friend was very chatty. He covered a multitude of topics in a very short time. It felt like I was being asked to eat an elephant in one bite. I believe that my pen and paper made him nervous. Therefore, I decided to interrupt him at an opportune time. It was here that I asked to “fire off some simple questions at him.” I believe that this helped to make him feel not so much under pressure. The following few questions are the ones that I gave him to start.
Interview Questions
What is your view of the Bible? How trustworthy is it?
Our beliefs are our own (the individual), however; we believe the Bible is a holy work.
Who is Jesus?
He was the savior of mankind.
Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross?
Yes!
Do you believe that he rose bodily from the grave and is alive today?
Absolutely!
At this point, I was relieved to hear his answer about Jesus. (I would later learn that these were Bobby’s personal beliefs and do not reflect all members of the organization. For example, if I would of came on a different day, and got a different person; let’s say a Muslim; I would have received different answers to the above questions.) Bobby returned to his charts and prepared topics. While in his office we talked about such things as his Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart, we also spoke about their purification process and auditing. During which time I was repeatedly referred to check out their multiple media stations located all throughout the lobby. Shortly thereafter Bobby informed me that there was something that he wanted me to see at one of these media stations. We went to the lobby where we watched a short video.
This would be a good time to address something that impressed me very much about their organization. I feel at times the church fails to meet people where they are at. Sadly the place that people are at today is in a sea of decentralization through television and media. I believe that the church of Scientology understands that this is how to reach people. Therefore in their lobby they have a minimum of eight 52 inch plasma flat screen televisions that all address various questions and vague answers to any and all of your Scientology questions. I can tell from my former media experience that the church has spent countless dollars and man hours on the production of these videos. Although, what they are teaching does not line up with many truths of the Bible, they are however, meeting the people where they are at. We live in a day and time where the television has become the classroom; so where else would you teach them.
Jumping back to the subject at hand, Bobby had just showed me a video on engrams. The church defines engrams by saying:
"The reactive mind does not store memories as we know them. It stores particular types of mental image pictures called engrams. These engrams are a complete recording, down to the last accurate detail, of every perception present in a moment of partial or full “unconsciousness.”
It was after the above video, a few questions, and dissecting a photo; that the churches beliefs and practices began to become clearer. The following photo is the one that was hanging up at the media station:
Bobby informed me that that we have engrams or “a mental image picture which is a recording of an experience containing pain, unconsciousness and a real or fancied threat to survival.”(See Wikipedia link). Bobby then told me that what Scientology does through Spiritual Technology. “We find the painful experience hidden in the recitative mind, and re-file them in the analytical mind.” I asked Bobby, exactly how it is that they did that? He informed me that this was “accomplished through a series of exercises.” I then asked for an example of one such exercise to where you could get into this reactive mind and re-file a memory. Bobby then said that an “auditor would have me tell them my story; like a story.” I am still not 100% certain on what he meant by that, however; he did inform me that this exercise produced:
I then informed Bobby that “this sounded exactly like counseling.” Bobby informed me that it wasn’t and then changed the subject back to the engrams and reactive mind. Bobby further stated that Ron L Hubbard’s discovery of the reactive mind lead to him authoring Dianetics, and therefore led to the religion. It was at this point that I jokingly said “So what your telling me is that ‘In the beginning’ Ron L. Hubbard.! “Bobby laughed and said “yes.” Bobby concluded this portion of our section by pointing out that “Hubbard, studied under a man named Snake Thompson, who studied under Sigmund Freud.” He also claimed that Hubbard claimed that Freud and Thompson were nuts, however; from what I would later learn, it seems to me like Hubbard and Freud had a few things in common.
At this point we moved to another media station where I learned the common denominator that all Scientologist believe and that all men share; the desire to survive. Bobby told me that this one denominator showed itself in Eight Dynamics of Existence; which are:
It was here that Bobby shared that “We believe that man is good, and in fact we believe that it is difficult to be evil.” I informed Bobby that it was “a good thing that he never ran into the old me, because evil came natural and seemed to easily find me.” I also informed him that “I disagree; I believe that we are born with an evil disposition to commit evil acts which are called sins. This disposition comes from our fallen nature due to Adam’s sin in the garden, and that anyone of us would have done the same thing in his place.”
It was here that Bobby informed me that he was familiar with the belief or doctrine and that he was raised Catholic, and later converted to Christian Mysticism, before converting to Scientology. He also told me that his conversion to Scientology was in part due to lack of physical evidence (victory for living), and the way that believers treated or dealt with their family members and others. We then moved to another media station, where we sat, and I asked Bobby if I could return to my questions. He informed me that would be fine. I decided the next topic that we should address was sin, due to the fact that we had just spoken of man’s nature being born either good or evil.
What is sin?
What you call sin, we call an overt. An overt is an act that does the greatest amount of harm, or more harm than good. It could also be called stuff you feel guilty about. There are two types of overt’s; First, the kind that you don’t talk about or withhold; or the things you’ve done. Secondly, are the kinds where you knew you should have done something but didn’t.
Bobby went onto to tell me that for stuff like this (overts), they do something like the addicts or alcoholics version of a moral inventory.
What does the term grace mean to you?
A state of being
What is faith?
It is a knowingness; something you feel.
What is the Gospel?
What’s true for people.
Do you believe in Heaven, Hell, life after death?
Yes
What is salvation?
The rehabilitation of spirit and man
What is the Trinity to you?
The same as the Christian belief
It was here that I realized that I was getting Bobby’s personal beliefs and not those of the organization as a whole. I realized that if I were to talk to someone else, the answers may be different. Therefore, I decided to address some questions regarding the organization itself.
Do you consider your church a Christian church?
Oh Yeah, there are Christians in attendance, I am one myself. We are an All-Denominational church.
What does All-Denominational mean?
“You know how in some churches they are non-Denominational, or do not adhere to one particular set of Denominational beliefs such as the Baptist or Nazarene beliefs??? Well, we here are an All-Denominational church where we do not adhere or practice only one set of religious beliefs. “
At this point I asked Bobby to go into greater detail. About thirty minutes later Bobby had finished, but not before I had learned the following things that Bobby told me:
· We are a religion for religion
· We will fight for your freedom of religion
· It’s against our religion to make another’s wrong
· To tell another person that their religion is wrong is to degrade and belittle them
· In actuality, we know that people have their own beliefs
· We respect the religious beliefs of others
· Since we are All-Denominational we have Christians, Muslims, and Hindus
· This allows barriers to not exist
· We seek the common denominator of all religions:
--All religions have a set of moral/ethical code
--Man is a spiritual being
After a long pause to gather my thoughts I informed Bobby that two and a half hours had passed and that I still had just a few more questions. I told him that I would like to respond to a few of the statements that he had made, however; in order to do so I really needed to ask just a few more questions for my paper. I suggested that we do a fast bullet-point style yes or no answer for the following questions:
With all religions being the right one; what is God like?
Every religion is correct, God is eternal. Whatever is true for you is what God is like. He is like what you have observed to be true.
Have you been born again? What does this mean?
Yes! My soul is restored in God’s eyes. I am full spiritually.
Do you believe that your church is the only true church? In your view do members of other churches have hope of eternal life?
No I do not, we are All-Denominational. Therefore, others can gain eternal life as well.
What do you like the most about being a member of your church?
What do you dislike about "so called" Christianity?
Christianity is not the problem, the lack of understanding of God’s word is.
What are a few do's and don'ts of your church?
That’s easy the do’s are our 21 Precepts or The Way to Happiness.
21 Precepts of The Way to Happiness
1. Take Care of Yourself
2. Be Temperate
3. Don't Be Promiscuous
4. Love and Help Children
5. Honor and Help Your Parents
6. Set A Good Example
7. Seek To Live With The Truth
8. Do Not Murder
9. Don't Do Anything Illegal
10. Support A Government Designed and Run For All The People
11. Do Not Harm A Person Of Good Will
12. Safeguard And Improve Your Environment
13. Do Not Steal
14. Be Worthy of Trust
15. Fulfill Your Obligations
16. Be Industrious
17. Be Competent
18. Respect The Religious Beliefs of Others
19. Try Not To Do Things To Others That You Would Not Like Them to Do To You
20. Try To Treat Others As You Would Want Them To Treat You
21. Flourish And Prosper
I then informed Bobby that I had only one more question of uncertainty before proceeding to my responses to the topics discussed today. I asked Him if he could provide me with a clear distinction between auditing and counseling. It is sufficient to say that he could not, however; he did try. Bobby claimed that “in counseling, they tell you what’s wrong. In auditing, they allow you to find out for yourself and make it go away.” I then asked “isn’t that the same as asking a patient leading questions and leading them to a conclusion?” Bobby said “no it is not. We actually do not condone psychiatry or medication to make problems go away. I said “I do not see a clear distinction however; it is time to move on.”
I then tried to gather my multiple responses to all the various things that Bobby had shared with me. While I was doing that I informed him that I really appreciated our time together, and that I had enjoyed myself very much. I also informed him that I had many misconceptions about the church of Scientology, and that I was sorry for that. However, I also informed him that there were things that I did not agree with, and that there were things that I would like to come back and discuss in the future. Bobby said that he would like that very much.
I then proceeded into my line of rebuttal or questioning. I had remembered that Bobby had said one of his reasons for loving his church was “The freedom it allows me to believe what I know to be true.” I also remember that he said “for someone to tell another person that their religion is wrong is to degrade and belittle them.” Therefore, I did not want to belittle or downgrade my new friend. I actually grew rather fond of this man in our few hours spent together. Therefore, I decided to proceed along the lines of logic and reason as opposed to religion, doctrine, or theology.
I asked Bobby if I understood him correctly when he said that “Every religion is correct” and that Our beliefs are our own (the individual), however; we believe the Bible is a holy work. Bobby informed me that was correct. I then informed Bobby that if that is the case, then the “truth is situational and relative to the individual.” Bobby agreed with that statement.
I then asked him how this could be. I asked him if he was familiar with the three foundational laws of all logic? Bobby claimed that he was not. I then informed Bobby that all logic and reasoning rest upon three principles or rules:
I then proceeded to explain to Bobby that the Law of the Excluded Middle demands that there is only one God. I said to Bobby “let’s take the god of Islam verses the god of the Hindus or the God of Christianity. The Muslims claim that there is one god named Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet, whereas the Christians claim that there is one God and “thou shall have no others gods before him. Therefore, the three laws demand that one of these guys is right, and one is wrong. In the same respect, it cannot be raining and not raining outside in the same place, and at the same time. Therefore, your statement that ‘Every religion is correct’ does not meet the standards for basic logic and reasoning. Either Christ is God or Allah is but they both cannot be God at the same time when both religions claim there is no other God”
Bobby then proceeded to reaffirm that “Our beliefs are our own (the individual)” and that if “we understand Allah to be god then he is. If we understand Christ to be God, then he is.” I decided to re-approach and asked “so you are telling me that there is only one god, and that he is the same, however; we tend as individuals to call him by different names and even though we look at Him completely different from others, it is still the same one and only God?” Bobby said “yes.” I then stated that “this does not explain how there are clear contradictions between the god of Islam and the God of Christianity. For example, Jesus view on women verses that of Allah’s. Or Jehovah’s approach on ruling with love and Allah’s approach on ruling with force. There is no way that all of these different religions could have the same founder.” Bobby maintained his view that all religions were correct. I told Bobby that it “sounds more like they are acknowledging that there was only one true God, but yet they were not placing their money on one particular dog in this dog fight.” I then presented the following question: “then am I left to understand that the church of Scientology is denying the very foundational laws of logic? Although Bobby laughed, he knew I was serious. I decided it best to move on however, before doing so I also said that “regardless if someone believes something to be true; that does not necessarily make it so. I went onto tell Bobby, that if I were on I-75 heading north, I could believe that I was heading South all that I wanted that does not change the fact that I am wrong. It does not matter how much I believe that I am heading south, that does not change the facts. In this particular case, someone can believe all they want that all religions are correct, however; that does not change the fact that all religions cannot be correct, someone is wrong.”
Bobby provided some other explanations, however; I realized that if we are to deny the fundamentals of logic then there is really no chance of proceeding for now. I then decided to address some things that I liked about their organization before proceeding to other discrepancies in their religion. I did not want to make my new friend feel belittled or that I was better than him. One of the very things that had turned Bobby off from Christianity was “the way that believers treated or dealt with their family members and others.” Therefore, I told him that “although I disagree with your church’s view on some major issues, lets me share some common ground that I see in your church that I do appreciate.” I liked the following things about their organization and then he talked about each one for awhile:
After this period of verbal affirmation I decided to address something else that Bobby said. I asked “did I understand you to say that ‘Since we are All-Denominational we have Christians, Muslims, and Hindus.” Bobby said that this statement was correct. Although, I remembered that Bobby had classified himself as a Christian I then explained at the risk of hurting his feelings that by definition members could not classify themselves as Christians. I said “Christians believe in Monotheism, whereas the church of Scientology believes in, and practices polytheism or the belief of many gods. In addition, the Christians specific beliefs demand that we have no part in worshiping other gods, or fellowshipping with those who do. Therefore, by definition anyone who attends here cannot call themselves Christians.” I felt bad for Bobby, but he did not respond to this. I had just officially broken one of his religious beliefs, and that was “It’s against our religion to make another’s religion wrong.”
I decided to address one more issue before departing in relation to the nature of sin. I asked if I was to “understand that they do acknowledge wrong doing, however; they do not call it sin?” Bobby said that this was correct. I informed him that although their founder Ronald L. Hubbard renounced his mentor and his mentor’s mentor (Sigmund Freud); that this lack of acknowledgement was the same approach as Freud’s to remove guilt by any means necessary. I informed Bobby that although his organization may not “condone psychiatry or medication to make problems go away,’ they are taking a psychological approach to denial. In addition, they are conducting psychological practices when they are conducting counseling/auditing sessions.” Although, I wanted to talk about the amount of money that the church made from these auditing sessions, I decided to end here.
There were many questions that I wanted to still address and debate, however; the time had gotten away from us. I actually really enjoyed the experience and my time with Bobby. I informed Bobby that I would be back to discuss other issues in the near future; and I will be. The Lord has shown me how much that he loves this man, and I must say that I grew rather fond of him myself. I was given a bunch of DVD’s to view at home, or give to a friend. In addition, Bobby also gave me a book that would normally cost money. I gave Bobby my contact information, and he gave me his. I learned a lot of stuff from my visit and I found that many of my misconceptions were unfounded, however; others were confirmed to actually be correct.
As I left a feeling of sadness came on me, for all the people who are devout and seeking God in their own way. I recently had a conversation with a fellow Christian who believes that Christians are not to judge one another. This made me think of Bobby; he does not want to be judged by man. However, one day we will all be judged by God; one of us is right, and the other is wrong. I believe that people like Bobby, and the previously mentioned Christian are following Jesus; but they are picking and choosing just how close they want to follow Him. This however, is not following at all. Please keep my new friend in prayer, and pray that the Lord will allow his eyes to be opened. I plan to visit with him in the near future to speak life and light into him.
- Relief of the experience
- This causes the engram to move to the Analytical mind
- In turn the pain from incident disappears
- However it does not just disappear, but blows away completely
- Therefore, you get that part of you back
I then informed Bobby that “this sounded exactly like counseling.” Bobby informed me that it wasn’t and then changed the subject back to the engrams and reactive mind. Bobby further stated that Ron L Hubbard’s discovery of the reactive mind lead to him authoring Dianetics, and therefore led to the religion. It was at this point that I jokingly said “So what your telling me is that ‘In the beginning’ Ron L. Hubbard.! “Bobby laughed and said “yes.” Bobby concluded this portion of our section by pointing out that “Hubbard, studied under a man named Snake Thompson, who studied under Sigmund Freud.” He also claimed that Hubbard claimed that Freud and Thompson were nuts, however; from what I would later learn, it seems to me like Hubbard and Freud had a few things in common.
At this point we moved to another media station where I learned the common denominator that all Scientologist believe and that all men share; the desire to survive. Bobby told me that this one denominator showed itself in Eight Dynamics of Existence; which are:
- Self
- Creativity
- Group Survival
- Species
- Life Forms
- Physical Universe
- Spiritual Dynamic
- Infinity
It was here that Bobby shared that “We believe that man is good, and in fact we believe that it is difficult to be evil.” I informed Bobby that it was “a good thing that he never ran into the old me, because evil came natural and seemed to easily find me.” I also informed him that “I disagree; I believe that we are born with an evil disposition to commit evil acts which are called sins. This disposition comes from our fallen nature due to Adam’s sin in the garden, and that anyone of us would have done the same thing in his place.”
It was here that Bobby informed me that he was familiar with the belief or doctrine and that he was raised Catholic, and later converted to Christian Mysticism, before converting to Scientology. He also told me that his conversion to Scientology was in part due to lack of physical evidence (victory for living), and the way that believers treated or dealt with their family members and others. We then moved to another media station, where we sat, and I asked Bobby if I could return to my questions. He informed me that would be fine. I decided the next topic that we should address was sin, due to the fact that we had just spoken of man’s nature being born either good or evil.
What is sin?
What you call sin, we call an overt. An overt is an act that does the greatest amount of harm, or more harm than good. It could also be called stuff you feel guilty about. There are two types of overt’s; First, the kind that you don’t talk about or withhold; or the things you’ve done. Secondly, are the kinds where you knew you should have done something but didn’t.
Bobby went onto to tell me that for stuff like this (overts), they do something like the addicts or alcoholics version of a moral inventory.
What does the term grace mean to you?
A state of being
What is faith?
It is a knowingness; something you feel.
What is the Gospel?
What’s true for people.
Do you believe in Heaven, Hell, life after death?
Yes
What is salvation?
The rehabilitation of spirit and man
What is the Trinity to you?
The same as the Christian belief
It was here that I realized that I was getting Bobby’s personal beliefs and not those of the organization as a whole. I realized that if I were to talk to someone else, the answers may be different. Therefore, I decided to address some questions regarding the organization itself.
Do you consider your church a Christian church?
Oh Yeah, there are Christians in attendance, I am one myself. We are an All-Denominational church.
What does All-Denominational mean?
“You know how in some churches they are non-Denominational, or do not adhere to one particular set of Denominational beliefs such as the Baptist or Nazarene beliefs??? Well, we here are an All-Denominational church where we do not adhere or practice only one set of religious beliefs. “
At this point I asked Bobby to go into greater detail. About thirty minutes later Bobby had finished, but not before I had learned the following things that Bobby told me:
· We are a religion for religion
· We will fight for your freedom of religion
· It’s against our religion to make another’s wrong
· To tell another person that their religion is wrong is to degrade and belittle them
· In actuality, we know that people have their own beliefs
· We respect the religious beliefs of others
· Since we are All-Denominational we have Christians, Muslims, and Hindus
· This allows barriers to not exist
· We seek the common denominator of all religions:
--All religions have a set of moral/ethical code
--Man is a spiritual being
After a long pause to gather my thoughts I informed Bobby that two and a half hours had passed and that I still had just a few more questions. I told him that I would like to respond to a few of the statements that he had made, however; in order to do so I really needed to ask just a few more questions for my paper. I suggested that we do a fast bullet-point style yes or no answer for the following questions:
With all religions being the right one; what is God like?
Every religion is correct, God is eternal. Whatever is true for you is what God is like. He is like what you have observed to be true.
Have you been born again? What does this mean?
Yes! My soul is restored in God’s eyes. I am full spiritually.
Do you believe that your church is the only true church? In your view do members of other churches have hope of eternal life?
No I do not, we are All-Denominational. Therefore, others can gain eternal life as well.
What do you like the most about being a member of your church?
- The freedom it allows me to believe what I know to be true
- The Spiritual counseling and the gains acquired from counseling
What do you dislike about "so called" Christianity?
Christianity is not the problem, the lack of understanding of God’s word is.
What are a few do's and don'ts of your church?
That’s easy the do’s are our 21 Precepts or The Way to Happiness.
21 Precepts of The Way to Happiness
1. Take Care of Yourself
2. Be Temperate
3. Don't Be Promiscuous
4. Love and Help Children
5. Honor and Help Your Parents
6. Set A Good Example
7. Seek To Live With The Truth
8. Do Not Murder
9. Don't Do Anything Illegal
10. Support A Government Designed and Run For All The People
11. Do Not Harm A Person Of Good Will
12. Safeguard And Improve Your Environment
13. Do Not Steal
14. Be Worthy of Trust
15. Fulfill Your Obligations
16. Be Industrious
17. Be Competent
18. Respect The Religious Beliefs of Others
19. Try Not To Do Things To Others That You Would Not Like Them to Do To You
20. Try To Treat Others As You Would Want Them To Treat You
21. Flourish And Prosper
I then informed Bobby that I had only one more question of uncertainty before proceeding to my responses to the topics discussed today. I asked Him if he could provide me with a clear distinction between auditing and counseling. It is sufficient to say that he could not, however; he did try. Bobby claimed that “in counseling, they tell you what’s wrong. In auditing, they allow you to find out for yourself and make it go away.” I then asked “isn’t that the same as asking a patient leading questions and leading them to a conclusion?” Bobby said “no it is not. We actually do not condone psychiatry or medication to make problems go away. I said “I do not see a clear distinction however; it is time to move on.”
I then tried to gather my multiple responses to all the various things that Bobby had shared with me. While I was doing that I informed him that I really appreciated our time together, and that I had enjoyed myself very much. I also informed him that I had many misconceptions about the church of Scientology, and that I was sorry for that. However, I also informed him that there were things that I did not agree with, and that there were things that I would like to come back and discuss in the future. Bobby said that he would like that very much.
I then proceeded into my line of rebuttal or questioning. I had remembered that Bobby had said one of his reasons for loving his church was “The freedom it allows me to believe what I know to be true.” I also remember that he said “for someone to tell another person that their religion is wrong is to degrade and belittle them.” Therefore, I did not want to belittle or downgrade my new friend. I actually grew rather fond of this man in our few hours spent together. Therefore, I decided to proceed along the lines of logic and reason as opposed to religion, doctrine, or theology.
I asked Bobby if I understood him correctly when he said that “Every religion is correct” and that Our beliefs are our own (the individual), however; we believe the Bible is a holy work. Bobby informed me that was correct. I then informed Bobby that if that is the case, then the “truth is situational and relative to the individual.” Bobby agreed with that statement.
I then asked him how this could be. I asked him if he was familiar with the three foundational laws of all logic? Bobby claimed that he was not. I then informed Bobby that all logic and reasoning rest upon three principles or rules:
- The law of Non-Contradiction: Something cannot be and not be at the same time and in the same respect.
- The Law of the Excluded Middle: Something either is or is not.
- The law of Identity: Something is what it is.
I then proceeded to explain to Bobby that the Law of the Excluded Middle demands that there is only one God. I said to Bobby “let’s take the god of Islam verses the god of the Hindus or the God of Christianity. The Muslims claim that there is one god named Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet, whereas the Christians claim that there is one God and “thou shall have no others gods before him. Therefore, the three laws demand that one of these guys is right, and one is wrong. In the same respect, it cannot be raining and not raining outside in the same place, and at the same time. Therefore, your statement that ‘Every religion is correct’ does not meet the standards for basic logic and reasoning. Either Christ is God or Allah is but they both cannot be God at the same time when both religions claim there is no other God”
Bobby then proceeded to reaffirm that “Our beliefs are our own (the individual)” and that if “we understand Allah to be god then he is. If we understand Christ to be God, then he is.” I decided to re-approach and asked “so you are telling me that there is only one god, and that he is the same, however; we tend as individuals to call him by different names and even though we look at Him completely different from others, it is still the same one and only God?” Bobby said “yes.” I then stated that “this does not explain how there are clear contradictions between the god of Islam and the God of Christianity. For example, Jesus view on women verses that of Allah’s. Or Jehovah’s approach on ruling with love and Allah’s approach on ruling with force. There is no way that all of these different religions could have the same founder.” Bobby maintained his view that all religions were correct. I told Bobby that it “sounds more like they are acknowledging that there was only one true God, but yet they were not placing their money on one particular dog in this dog fight.” I then presented the following question: “then am I left to understand that the church of Scientology is denying the very foundational laws of logic? Although Bobby laughed, he knew I was serious. I decided it best to move on however, before doing so I also said that “regardless if someone believes something to be true; that does not necessarily make it so. I went onto tell Bobby, that if I were on I-75 heading north, I could believe that I was heading South all that I wanted that does not change the fact that I am wrong. It does not matter how much I believe that I am heading south, that does not change the facts. In this particular case, someone can believe all they want that all religions are correct, however; that does not change the fact that all religions cannot be correct, someone is wrong.”
Bobby provided some other explanations, however; I realized that if we are to deny the fundamentals of logic then there is really no chance of proceeding for now. I then decided to address some things that I liked about their organization before proceeding to other discrepancies in their religion. I did not want to make my new friend feel belittled or that I was better than him. One of the very things that had turned Bobby off from Christianity was “the way that believers treated or dealt with their family members and others.” Therefore, I told him that “although I disagree with your church’s view on some major issues, lets me share some common ground that I see in your church that I do appreciate.” I liked the following things about their organization and then he talked about each one for awhile:
- Their use of media to reach the lost.
- Their holistic approach (counseling/auditing) to minister to the individual.
- Their social excursions into secular society.
- Their fellowshipping on a Tuesday/Weekday morning.
- Their college level classes that they provide to educate their members (even if they are wrong)
- Their lack of murmuring, complaining, and backbiting that typically goes on within a denominational church. The fact they are All-Denominational and the building does not burn down do to arguments is impressive.
After this period of verbal affirmation I decided to address something else that Bobby said. I asked “did I understand you to say that ‘Since we are All-Denominational we have Christians, Muslims, and Hindus.” Bobby said that this statement was correct. Although, I remembered that Bobby had classified himself as a Christian I then explained at the risk of hurting his feelings that by definition members could not classify themselves as Christians. I said “Christians believe in Monotheism, whereas the church of Scientology believes in, and practices polytheism or the belief of many gods. In addition, the Christians specific beliefs demand that we have no part in worshiping other gods, or fellowshipping with those who do. Therefore, by definition anyone who attends here cannot call themselves Christians.” I felt bad for Bobby, but he did not respond to this. I had just officially broken one of his religious beliefs, and that was “It’s against our religion to make another’s religion wrong.”
I decided to address one more issue before departing in relation to the nature of sin. I asked if I was to “understand that they do acknowledge wrong doing, however; they do not call it sin?” Bobby said that this was correct. I informed him that although their founder Ronald L. Hubbard renounced his mentor and his mentor’s mentor (Sigmund Freud); that this lack of acknowledgement was the same approach as Freud’s to remove guilt by any means necessary. I informed Bobby that although his organization may not “condone psychiatry or medication to make problems go away,’ they are taking a psychological approach to denial. In addition, they are conducting psychological practices when they are conducting counseling/auditing sessions.” Although, I wanted to talk about the amount of money that the church made from these auditing sessions, I decided to end here.
There were many questions that I wanted to still address and debate, however; the time had gotten away from us. I actually really enjoyed the experience and my time with Bobby. I informed Bobby that I would be back to discuss other issues in the near future; and I will be. The Lord has shown me how much that he loves this man, and I must say that I grew rather fond of him myself. I was given a bunch of DVD’s to view at home, or give to a friend. In addition, Bobby also gave me a book that would normally cost money. I gave Bobby my contact information, and he gave me his. I learned a lot of stuff from my visit and I found that many of my misconceptions were unfounded, however; others were confirmed to actually be correct.
As I left a feeling of sadness came on me, for all the people who are devout and seeking God in their own way. I recently had a conversation with a fellow Christian who believes that Christians are not to judge one another. This made me think of Bobby; he does not want to be judged by man. However, one day we will all be judged by God; one of us is right, and the other is wrong. I believe that people like Bobby, and the previously mentioned Christian are following Jesus; but they are picking and choosing just how close they want to follow Him. This however, is not following at all. Please keep my new friend in prayer, and pray that the Lord will allow his eyes to be opened. I plan to visit with him in the near future to speak life and light into him.